Conflict Avoided is Conflict Multiplied
Episode 265
In this episode of Integrative You Radio, Dr. Nicole and Dr. Nick dive deep into the concept that “conflict avoided is conflict multiplied.” They explore how isolation—whether from entrepreneurship, chronic illness, or strained relationships—can impact health and happiness, and why honest, humble, and methodical communication is the antidote. Drawing from personal stories, clinical experience, and frameworks like Patrick Lencioni’s trust pyramid, they share practical tools for building trust, fostering win-win relationships, and showing up as better leaders, partners, and humans. #IntegrativeYou #ConflictResolution #TrustBuilding #AuthenticLeadership #EntrepreneurLife #RelationshipGoals #Vulnerability #WinWin #PersonalGrowth #ConsciousCommunication #LimitlessLiving 3 Key Takeaways: Avoiding Conflict = Multiplying Problems: When we dodge uncomfortable conversations—at work, home, or with ourselves—we’re actually allowing issues to fester and grow. Facing things head-on (with humility, not aggression) builds trust and leads to better outcomes. Trust Is Built Through Vulnerability and Win-Win Intentions: True trust isn’t just about keeping promises; it’s about creating space for open, honest dialogue where everyone can win. Vulnerability and methodical communication are the foundation. Quality > Quantity in Relationships: It’s not about how many people fill your life, but the depth and fairness of those connections. Prioritizing clear, caring communication transforms relationships—from business to family. Quotes: “Conflict avoided is conflict multiplied. The last thing we want is for frustration to fester—addressing it directly, with humility, actually builds trust.” “The goal is trust. And trust is created from a win-win relationship… If everybody’s winning evenly, there’s maximal trust.” Find Integrative You Radio On: Website Youtube Apple Spotify 2 Doctors Committed to Innovating the Healthcare Experience. Integrative You Radio is hosted by husband-and-wife duo, Dr.
Topics: trust, conflict, integrative, unknown, relationships, family, radio, isolation
Key takeaways from this episode
- ## Episode: Conflict Avoided is Conflict Multiplied
- Avoiding crucial conversations allows issues to escalate, while addressing them with humility builds trust and improves outcomes.
- Genuine trust is cultivated through vulnerability and a commitment to win-win situations, creating space for open and honest dialogue.
- The quality and depth of relationships, characterized by clear and caring communication, are more important than quantity, transforming connections from business to family.
- The impact of isolation on health and happiness
Pull quotes
This is the place where you become limitless. **Unknown:** We are covering the latest and greatest topics, of course, in a disruptive fashion, around integrative medicine, mental health, and human behavior.
We will be sprinkling in some truth bombs for our healthpreneurs so they can join us in our mission to evolve healthcare.
If you are health curious and growth focused, you are in the right place, but buckle up because this is real, this is raw, and this is disruptive. **Unknown:** This is Integrative U Radio.
Transcript
**Unknown:** Welcome to Integrative U Radio, hosted by Dr. Nick Carruthers and yours truly, Dr. Nicole Rivera. This is the place where you become limitless.
**Unknown:** We are covering the latest and greatest topics, of course, in a disruptive fashion, around integrative medicine, mental health, and human behavior. We are also covering how those topics affect the human and family dynamics. We will be sprinkling in some truth bombs for our healthpreneurs so they can join us in our mission to evolve healthcare. If you are health curious and growth focused, you are in the right place, but buckle up because this is real, this is raw, and this is disruptive.
**Unknown:** This is Integrative U Radio. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Integrative U Radio. I am here with Dr.
**Unknown:** Nick, and we are talking about a really fun topic today. I think I say that every single time because I'm such a dork, and I get so excited about everything we talk about. This is all true. It's all- It is all relevant.
**Unknown:** Well, I think that it's, you know, it, it's something... It's safe to say that especially post-pandemic, but don't get me wrong, there are so many other layers to this, that there are a lot of people that feel pretty isolated, people that feel lonely. And, and I say there's other aspects of this primarily because you and I both, as entrepreneurs, we've been in a lot of different coaching programs, and that was a theme of conversation. A- and it was especially a theme of conversation when you were first getting started in a program of, "Hey, let's, let's address the elephant in the room that, you know, you as entrepreneurs kinda feel like your own...
**Unknown:** on your own little mountain, you know, trying to, to get to the top, and you feel isolated, you feel alone because not a lot of people can relate to the pain points that you're experiencing in entrepreneurship." And then on top of that, we experienced a pandemic which created isolation for people, like literally created isolation for people. And then there's a similar dynamic when it comes to individuals that we've worked with that have had mystery illness or chronic illness, and people don't understand. They... You know, doctors will say to them, "It's in your head.
**Unknown:** Your labs look fine." Their family members don't... can't relate. They don't understand how someone could be so sick, or someone could be bedridden, or someone could have such low energy, and there's a level of isolation with that, and sometimes that isolation is, is mental, and sometimes it's physical, and sometimes it's both. Yes.
**Unknown:** When you were talking about that, I, I saw both directions. I was like, I was wondering if... 'Cause initially I think of, like, that loneliness causes you to be sick, you know? I mean- Of course ...
**Unknown:** a, a big portion of it, but I was like, under- I'm always trying to look at things as a balance of, like, well, how's that benefiting the person, you know? It's not just a bad thing. And I was like, you go out to eat, and I mean, we're probably attracting it from who we are, but we always hear people complaining about health issues and this and that, and it's... and it's gonna- The beauty of not necessarily knowing- ...
**Unknown:** the Italian language that well, 'cause we live in Italy now, and, uh, I can tune all that out. But it'd be interesting if unconsciously it's like the sickness is just a different tool for that person to not be lonely because sickness brings a lot of people together. 100%. You know, there, there is definitely an element of people that feel alone or isolated, and it- it's maybe because they have had difficult relationships with family, friends, and they're choosing to isolate themselves.
**Unknown:** That can 100% create sickness, and then there is sickness that can then create that type of loneliness and isolation. But as mentioned, sometimes that's happening for a reason because the people that are in your life maybe are, are more superficial relationships. Maybe they're more toxic to your psyche than you realize, which is, is kind of the topic that we're, we're getting into today. Um, you know, you and I had conversations together, but then there were also conversations with...
**Unknown:** in two completely different arenas of life that brought up this phrase that we always say that conflict avoided is conflict multiplied, and it's one of the reasons why you and I have a weekly meeting just not a- necessarily about the business. It's you and I about our own personal accomplishments and failures, and then also how we are showing up for each other as, as a couple. Yeah. I was...
**Unknown:** I actually talked a lot about this with a client yesterday, and, uh, she's like you, type A, you know? Uh, CEO, uh, energy. And I was like, "You, you have meetings in business. You have meetings with your team.
**Unknown:** You have meetings all this, and, and, and why? It's so you don't have to deal with fires later, you know? It's all pre, preventative. It's so you can keep everything growing in alignment." I was like, "You're not doing that with your partner?" I was like, "What the fuck?" I was like, "That makes zero sense." I go, "Just step back and see.
**Unknown:** You want your-... romantic relationship to go as well as work does, but you don't wanna do the things that cause work to be so successful, like, you know, you're not gonna have a successful relationship if- But people go into this idea that that's bad. I've had this conversation with, with people, men and women, it's not one more than the other, and they're like, "But a relationship should flow. A relationship shouldn't be that hard." And I'm like, "That- that's not the point." It's about...
**Unknown:** This is one thing that I think none of us have been taught. It, it does flow, and it is easy wh- when you're preventative. When... But when you are actively communicating.
**Unknown:** And so one of the things that we're gonna bring to you guys today is we wanna bring you, v- you know, when we talk, you know, this, some of this is, is theory. You know, this is, this, these are things that we're sharing with you based off of our clinical experience, our clinical obser- observations, our, um, experience as humans, you know, navigating life, navigating family dynamics, navigating relationships. And then there's also these... I don't wanna call it science, but there are these methodologies and these frameworks that have been created and proven.
**Unknown:** So one of the frameworks that I was thinking of that I learned in, in my business coaching certifications was by Patrick Lencioni, and what I loved about him is that he is big on the people side of business. And he's like, "You are nothing without your people." And listen, for those of you that are super into AI and technology and this and that, and you know, this is Nick, that are like, "Oh, you know, every, all businesses are gonna be run by A- AI in the future," whatever, that's fine. But at the end of the day, if you were to just interact with AI and you have no relationships in your life, you're, you're not gonna feel overly satisfied or fulfilled. So working with humans, speaking with humans, relationships with humans, it's going to affect you in some way or another, and some of the most successful visionary companies have figured out how to create really amazing company culture which is based on their people, and that is why they're successful.
**Unknown:** That's what they attribute their success for, or to, I should say. And so I found that there are so many interesting aspects of how does this flow into family? How does this flow into romantic relationships? Because at the end of the day, when you hear people complain about their aunt, their mom, their dad, their kids, their husband, their wife, if you were to zoom out, it's all communication, understanding issues.
**Unknown:** Dis- dyscommunication in that instance. 100%. That's the same thing with the body, though. You know, it's like if there's an, an area of the body not functioning properly, it's just because there's not proper communication going from, whether that's a hormone or a neurotransmitter into a cell, et cetera, there's a break or the wrong communication, and then, you know, we call it that the body's breaking down or something's wrong, but it's just figuring out where that break in communication is- 100% ...
**Unknown:** and why. And so s- speaking of this idea, I'm gonna give you two high-level stories that are going to really segue into what we want you guys to gain from, from this podcast. And both of them happened this week. So one was between myself and a client, uh, call them a patient.
**Unknown:** We call them members. And so this was more, i- it was a working relationship, a business relationship, and essentially, the theme of conflict avoided is conflict multiplied came up. And the reason being is that this person was having some issues, they were having some feelings, they were having some frustrations, and for myself as being the leader of their care, I addressed it immediately. I said, "You know, we're not going to let this frustration, conflict, overwhelm fester.
**Unknown:** We're going to get on a face-to-face call. We're gonna communicate in a very strategic and humble way, and we're gonna come up with some very specific clarity and resolutions." And so in the past, this is something that maybe I wouldn't have had time to do. This is something that I would've maybe avoided, because it would've been uncomfortable. And taking kind of the bull by the horns and having a difficult conversation is something that not only empowered myself, but also empowered the other individual, and also yielded solutions and was quickly able to rectify a situation.
**Unknown:** The most important thing is that there was a level of trust that was built that maybe was there, but it wasn't strong. And so- Wait. Go ahead. Trust, I think people have a, a wrong relationship with trust.
**Unknown:** Or like a- Yeah ... a wrong or a wrong definition? Y- yeah, I guess you could call it that. I look at trust as trust...
**Unknown:** You trust somebody when, like, they keep their word or they do these things, but, like, really when you think about it as, like, trust, a lack of trust occurs when one party doesn't win, you know, one party gets hurt. That's when you lose trust. Like an unfair exchange, you mean? Correct.
**Unknown:** Yeah. So your phone call, what you had, it was a candid conversation. It was not, quote-unquote, "easy," but the trust was built because-The, the time, the energy, and the space to create a win-win. Yeah.
**Unknown:** And it's like, I mean, you talked about the clarity, but I really want people to understand that that, that clarity was so that there could be a win-win, and that's what builds trust for people. It was the- And it's taking the time ... there was an opening. It wasn't the me show.
**Unknown:** It wasn't I'm here to give you all of your solutions and, and, and address your problems. There was an open platform for her to speak up and for me to speak up and, and to bring, you know, both perspectives to the table, and then be able to talk about it and resolve it. So it, I... what you're saying is actually very, very important because a lot of times when w- this idea of conflict avoided is conflict multiplied, you know, the last thing that we want you to gain from this conversation is that, oh, you know, don't tolerate, just go in and tell them how you feel.
**Unknown:** Guns blazing. No, no, no. Yeah. That there's a lot of people that do that already, and it does not get them very far.
**Unknown:** And so actually, you kinda set me up here because the second time that I brought up conflict avoided, conflict multiplied was in a conversation that I was having with a friend of ours here in Italy in relation to his relationship with his brother. And, you know, there was a lot, uh, in the r- in the conversation, there was a lot of pushback in what I was saying, primarily because he was like, "He's a difficult man. He has, you know, his own mental illness. He has these issues.
**Unknown:** He's very, uh, narcissistic. He doesn't care about what I have to say. Like, it's his way or the highway." There was a lot of rebuttals, and, and essentially what I, I wrapped it up with, I was like, "Listen, this is not about you going in and putting on a presentation for your brother that in that moment he's gonna be like, 'Holy shit.'" You know, he, they're f- he's 45, his brother is, I think, 50. You know, 50 years of operating a certain way, thinking a certain way, you're not changing that in one conversation.
**Unknown:** Like, that's not the goal. The goal is, is that you show up in such a confident but humble way, in, in such a methodical way, 'cause you thought about how you're gonna show up, and you do it in a way that the person is almost, like, a little surprised. And I say humble because when you start to get emotional or you s- "Ah, fuck you," like, you know, the person's gonna shut down. They're, they're not gonna listen to you.
**Unknown:** They're g- they're gonna laugh. They're just gonna be like, "What a joke. This is... That you, you, you pulled the same card you always do." So it's you show up in this confident way with conviction, with passion for that win-win, but you, you maintain that level of humility because your goal is, is you really do want a positive outcome or, or an, or an outcome altogether.
**Unknown:** You're not just like, "I'm just here to, to bitch and moan." And I said, "But you, if you do this, don't expect something in that moment. Don't sit there and say, 'I'm gonna show up in such a powerful way that he's, he's gonna... He's not even... He's gonna completely respond to me differently than he ever had.'" Like, go in with the, with the, with no expectation to say, "I'm here for me, for, for, for me to potentially speak in a way that I've never been able to, to be as vulnerable as possible, to, to share my truth, but I wanna do it in a humble way because I'm looking for the outcome to be a stronger foundation for us, more trust between us." And if the person takes it, great.
**Unknown:** If the person doesn't, great. You have to be okay with either outcome. But the way that I look at it is if they're s- still thinking about that conversation afterward, that's a win. So you might see a different outcome or an outcome altogether.
**Unknown:** It could be a month from then, it could be six months from then, it could be a year from then, because it's not, it's about that person and their processing of, of how you showed up and the conversation that was had. So I think that it's really, really important for people to understand that, one, you don't just go in guns blazing, and then, two, this is about addressing conflict as a win-win situation, as you said, Dr. Nick, and also with a level of, of humility and a level of confidence that maybe you haven't shown in the past. I was taking notes.
**Unknown:** I like to try to break everything down as simple as possible to see, and then say- I love it. Let's do it ... okay, I get it. So I wrote down the, the goal is trust.
**Unknown:** Yes. And trust is created from a win-win relationship, or you could say the, the degree of trust, because nothing's black and white, so the degree of trust is the degree of that win-win. And if everybody's winning evenly, there's maximal trust. But if one person starts losing or another person starts winning more, well, that, there's a little bit of imbalance of trust there.
**Unknown:** That win-win is, like you said, it's only created by being vulnerable and methodical.So you have to have a strong, clear intention of w- what the goal is to not get derailed, but to be, like you said, humbled, grounded, centered. And vul- that vulnerability allows to stay in that middle road, to not jump up to, you know, the over or under of gaining or losing, which takes away from trust. That vulnerability allows you to have the communication or the discommunication, and if you have the communication with the vulnerability and everything else, you have the trust. But if on the opposite side, if you don't have any of that, that takes you to being lonely and sick.
**Unknown:** Yeah. Well, it's interesting because you essentially encompassed some aspects of the, the pyramid from, from Patrick Lencioni, and so I, I wanna share- And I mean, we're both, we're both brilliant men. So it's... I haven't read any of his books, but you, you love him, so.
**Unknown:** His work is really fantastic and, and again, I, I think that part of my attraction to it was I wanted to, I wanted to build a really great business, and I knew that, uh, experience for our clientele was a big part of that, and in our model, experience was going to be dictated by the people that we had. And so I wanted to put a lot of my focus into my people opposed to, you know, talking about spreadsheets and numbers and profit and loss. You know, we needed to address those parts, but if you're trying to address that and not address your people, y- you're, you're going to have a lose-lose situation. And but as I learned this, and I, I do think it's actually one of the reasons why we felt like there was an easy segue into parenting, is, you know, we had this major crash course in, in people and, and how people operate, and it's actually flowed tremendously into how we show up in our relationship, but also in our, in our parenting as well.
**Unknown:** Um, but he says some things that are just really interesting of, you know, if you don't have the trust, you're going to have fear of conflict. So you have people fearing the bringing hard conversations to the table, and w- we all know this. We know there are certain people in our lives where we're like, "I'm not even gonna do it." Like, I'm not gonna have the con- Like, I know how they're gonna react. Like, I know they're gonna lose it, or they're gonna be mad, or they're gonna take it personally, and you just avoid the conversation, and it's because there's a lack of trust.
**Unknown:** And I'm sure that individual who's extremely reactive, they have a lack of trust inside of themself. It's not really just external. Um, but if you, if you have a lack of trust, you have this, this roadblock on the ability to have these hard conversations, then there is gonna be a lack of commitment and a lack of accountability. You know, you think about it, it's like if you have a person in your life that they are...
**Unknown:** You can't, you can't be yourself. You can't be vulnerable. You can't have transparent, deep conversations with them because they're so reactive. You're not gonna be overly accountable to showing up to their birthday party.
**Unknown:** You're not gonna be overly accountable to show up when they, quote unquote, "need you," you know, because there's no reciprocation. It's not a win-win. It's like- Yeah, but I'd say- ... it, it ends up being the them show.
**Unknown:** The only thing that I think people don't understand is that's what they want. They want those, that deep connection, if they wanna put in the work for a deep conversation, all these things, to be vulnerable and have more of that tightness and trust, but you start different. You start in a different place with every single person. Like- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** y- it's easy to compare, like, oh, I have this with this person. I wish I could have it with them. And it's like, they're different people. You have a different relationship with them.
**Unknown:** You're gonna have a different starting point. You can't compare one relationship with another, 'cause it's, it's a completely different entity. So you have to go into it with, like, that emptiness of like, okay, this is, this is where we're gonna start growing, you know? You go out to a field and you could get lucky, and one field is already...
**Unknown:** had been tilled and beautiful. The other field might need a lot of cleanup work first before you can get to that. Yeah. It, it, it's all, it's all relative to your, your judgment, so stop judging, 'cause that's holding you back from being vulnerable and allowing you to actually start working on the relationship.
**Unknown:** Well, I think it's huge what you said, because what I was just describing is, is essentially what it looks like when a relationship is not built on trust, but that doesn't mean that you as the individual, as potentially the growth-minded individual, hence why you're listening to this podcast, that doesn't mean that you can't be a part of shifting that dynamic. Because the individuals that are reactive and, you know, they, they're not willing to have hard conversations, they kinda throw their emotions all over the place, like, those are wounded people. Deep down, they want a quality relationship. They just don't know how.
**Unknown:** And it's not your journey to fix them by any means, but if they are a person that's important to you, you can show up in a certain way, a s- a, a vulnerable way, and you can also show up with the intention of that win-win, and that could potentially deepen the trust with that individual. This is essentially the conversation that I was having with our friend here in Italy about his brother. I'm like, "It's not for you to fix him or change him. That's his own journey.
**Unknown:** ButYou can show up in a certain way to kind of... What's that phrase? E- extend... I always fuck these up.
**Unknown:** The olive branch? I don't know. But it's like you can, you can be really happy with how you showed up and extend that, you know, that invitation That olive branch. He might take it, he might not.
**Unknown:** But at least for you, you know that you tried. And, you know, again, we can't take responsibility for other people, but there are ways that we can show up that will deepen trust, even with people that have been a bit difficult in our lives. So wrapping it up, you might not be lonely and sick now, but life is like a roller coaster, and we can either better understand this concept to help ourselves in the future if we do, and/or, like Dr. Nicole said, be able to change how we interact with somebody that is lonely and sick because now we kind of understand more of the process of how and why they got there.
**Unknown:** And if we want to grow that trust and we wanna grow, uh, that relationship, um, it's... Like you said, it's not science, but there's really a methodology, um, to be able to create trusting, strong relationships. Yeah, and I, I invite you guys to think about quality over quantity. You know, there are definitely people that are like, "I'm not lonely.
**Unknown:** This is totally irrelevant to me. I have so many friends, and I have a huge family." Um, that's great, but, you know, when you really look at the quality of those relationships, you know, are these people people that you feel a fair exchange with, or are these people that you find yourself resenting at certain times because there is an unfair exchange? You know, are these people the people that are gonna be your, quote-unquote, "ride or die"? You know, if you need something or you're, you know, dealing with some turmoil, you know, are they there to have your back, or are they really just there when, you know, you're having a birthday party at your house?
**Unknown:** So, you know, this is... These are all things to, to consider. And really, if you are an entrepreneur and a business owner, you have to understand that avoiding conflict e- with your customer and avoiding... A- avoiding conflict with a bad review, avoiding conflict with an employee, it's always gonna blow up later.
**Unknown:** Some of it will blow up quickly. Some of it will take a while. So it's really important for you, if you are a founder of the company, if you are, you know, someone in charge leading the company, which if you are an entrepreneur, you are that person. It doesn't matter if you've hired a COO or a CEO.
**Unknown:** You are still the leader to those leaders. And it's important for you to not only encompass this yourself, but it's also to have your leaders, managers, directors, whatever you wanna call them, encompass this. Because this allows people to feel heard. It deepens the trust.
**Unknown:** It avoids problems blowing up that cascade into other parts of life and business. It's really, in our experience, one of the key factors to better family dynamics, better business practices, and also just feeling like you are showing up as a leader. You're showing up in the, in the best way that you can for the people around you. Yeah, and that's the ultimate goal is just to live an awesome, amazing life, and you can't do that without, um, maximizing each one of your buckets.
**Unknown:** So it's, it's a great tool. All right, guys. Until next time. We thank you so much for being an avid listener of Integrative U Radio, formerly known as Integrative Wellness Radio.
**Unknown:** We appreciate all of your support. We love your comments. Please visit us on social media as well as our website to see all of the fun things happening behind the scenes and the new amazing content and courses that is being rolled out on a monthly basis. We hope to see you there.
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About Integrative You Radio
Integrative You Radio is a root cause medicine and integrative medicine podcast hosted by Dr. Nicole Rivera and Dr. Nick Carruthers — two integrative doctors who build personalized wellness protocols from your DNA, minerals, hormones, gut, and nervous system rather than from a population template. Looking for an integrative doctor who reads your labs together instead of in isolation? This is the show.
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