Back To The Basics: A Functional Approach to Mental Health ft. Brendan Vermeire
Episode 165
Brendan’s Bio: Brendan is a Mental and Metabolic Health Scientist & Researcher, Functional Medicine Educator, Writer, and Speaker. He is a Board-Certified Holistic Health Practitioner, Master Nutrition Coach, Master Personal Trainer, USAW Sports Performance Coach, and Crossfit Trainer. He began his career as a personal trainer and nutrition coach at the age of 18 after disappointingly being medically discharged from the United States Navy Seal training pipeline due to an injury. After being exposed to the power of functional lab testing in the start of his career, he began intensely pursuing that as a career path which has led him to be widely regarded as one of the top leading experts in Metabolic Health and Functional Education. He is the proud owner and founder of the Metabolic Solutions Institute for Functional Health and Fitness Practitioners and the creator of the Functional Mental Health Practitioner Certificate Course. He is also the founder of the Metabolic Solutions Research & Education Foundation, a not-for-profit foundation dedicated to ‘changing the way the world views mental health’ through advancing the science of Mental Health Dysfunction. He is also the creator of The Mental M.A.P.™, a cutting-edge Lab Panel for Mental Health. When he’s not educating doctors/practitioners/professionals, helping clients overcome their most severe health struggles, or producing cutting-edge scientific education, Brendan enjoys all things fitness and is probably working out. He also enjoys anything in nature and any activities that expand his heart, mind, and soul. Description: Dr. Nicole is back with a new episode of Integrative Wellness Radio featuring Brendan Vermeire, a Mental Health Scientist & Certified Health Practitioner who has been busy pioneering and bringing a new and improved functional approach to people when it comes to mental health. In this part, Brendan briefs us on how his own personal journey with mental health motivated him to transition into a fun
Topics: health, mental, functional, brendan, unknown, metabolic, back, approach
Key takeaways from this episode
- ## Back To The Basics: A Functional Approach to Mental Health ft. Brendan Vermeire
- Mental health is deeply intertwined with metabolic health and underlying biological systems.
- A functional approach emphasizes identifying the root causes of mental health issues rather than just managing symptoms.
- Lab testing can provide crucial insights into metabolic and hormonal imbalances affecting mental well-being.
- Empowering individuals with knowledge about their body's biochemistry is key to sustainable mental health.
Pull quotes
Imagine if medicine actually looked at you as a whole opposed to looking at you as a bunch of separate systems.
Nick and Dr. **Unknown:** Nicole to learn more about the top trends in integrative medicine to learn about what the limitations are with testing and what you can do to start your health journey.
So we are back with another episode of Integrative Wellness Radio. **Unknown:** And Brendan, I didn't even ask you how you want me to introduce you.
Transcript
**Unknown:** I've been up all night, no sleep. Imagine if medicine actually looked at you as a whole opposed to looking at you as a bunch of separate systems. Dive into Integrative Wellness Radio with Dr. Nick and Dr.
**Unknown:** Nicole to learn more about the top trends in integrative medicine to learn about what the limitations are with testing and what you can do to start your health journey. Sometimes I tend to lose myself when I'm out here on my own. Hello, everyone. So we are back with another episode of Integrative Wellness Radio.
**Unknown:** And Brendan, I didn't even ask you how you want me to introduce you. So I'm gonna let you introduce yourself, but this is our second go-around. Uh, we got together, it was last year, right? Yeah, it was probably about a year ago.
**Unknown:** It was probably like two years ago because- Maybe five, I don't know ... just like a complete blur of life after having a child and a pandemic, you know. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
**Unknown:** But, um, I'm super excited for us to talk about some of the things that you've been working on, uh, because you are really pioneering when it comes to helping people understand a new, improved, and functional approach to mental health. So why don't you give everyone a little bit of a background of who you are, how you got into this, and then we're gonna just dive into some of the things that people are just not hearing about when it comes to mental health. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for having me back, and congratulations again on your baby.
**Unknown:** Oh, thank you. Beautiful little baby boy. He's so buff. He's literally a tank, literally.
**Unknown:** Yeah. Yeah, he is. You, you, you make strong babies. I think, uh, I think that says something about your mama.
**Unknown:** He's literally like a little Spartan child. Yeah. Hey, I mean, I think in this world we, we need it, right? Oh, yeah.
**Unknown:** We need like some strong offspring, but- ... no, it's, it's good to be back. I mean, I've, I've been super busy over here and it's, it's hard to even succinctly like encapsulate this crazy journey I've been on for, you know, really my whole life, but especially my adult life when, you know, I was first put on a psychiatric drug at 17, and then diagnosed with ADHD and major depressive disorder at 21, and going through, you know, suicide attempt and psychiatric inpatient hospitalization. And, you know, I was a personal trainer and nutrition coach at the time, all the while struggling with my mental health, and it was then living in, you know, a water damaged home, in a codependent narcissist-empath relationship that spiraled, maybe mold illness, don't really know.
**Unknown:** And it was really trying to save her and navigate my way out of a horrible time in my life that steered me into functional medicine. I was very scientifically minded already with exercise physiology and nutritional biochemistry, so it was a very organic and natural evolution into the functional medicine space. And then within functional medicine, I got really hot on the mold thing, right? You know, so then I kind of- We all do.
**Unknown:** Right, like we all do, and I think I've established myself as one of the, one of the dudes when it comes to mold. And, um, but I, I felt like too niched down in that, and I was like, "All right, well, I don't really want my whole world and career, you know, revolving around mold." So I had to kind of reevaluate of like, why do I care about mold? And it's like, oh, 'cause, you know, when it comes to root causes of mental health issues, I don't think it gets worse than, than true mold illness. And I think I kind of blamed a lot of, you know, what I went through on mold to some degree.
**Unknown:** And, and of course, there's something to be said for it's a lot easier to, uh, blame some abstract external thing rather than maybe taking ownership of like- Yeah ... how you manifested your shitty reality, right? So... Well put.
**Unknown:** Well put. Yeah. I mean that's, that's the honest work that you have to do if you really wanna heal and transcend or, you know, you can just identify as a moldy forever and go to mold conferences wearing your mold T-shirts, and that's just your identity forever- ... is you're a sick person, right?
**Unknown:** Yeah. Like, where does that get you? Well, that's the- Like, you're a mold consumer ... it's a rabbit hole too, because I know as a clinician, and I'm sure you've had this experience as well, is, you know, people get very bogged down about this idea of environmental factors because they start thinking like, "How do I live my life?" You know, like, "How do I go to a hotel and guarantee there's no mold?" Like, "How do I..." You know, like, "I love coffee.
**Unknown:** Now every cup of coffee I have to think about, is it moldy or not?" So they get very bogged down about this idea of, "Oh, I have to live in a bubble to be healthy." And you know, as y- we're both saying is mold is 100% important, and measuring those environmental assaults is important as well. But we also, we have to look at how much are we a creator in that reality of like, what are the, the other layers to it? What is the things that are going on mentally, emotionally, relationship-wise in our environment? That's just as important, and also internally is why could our bo- why is our body being so reactive to the environment?
**Unknown:** You know, like what's going on inside that maybe it's been a compounding effect that the liver isn't detoxing very well anymore. The lymphatic system is completely trashed, and so it's like we have to bridge that gap, and I think that a lot of us as functional practitioners, we like naturally move into this integrative mindset because we hit the plateaus personally, and then we see other people hit those plateaus. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
**Unknown:** And you know, I think it's not till you lose yourself down a few of those rabbit holes, and if you are doing the inner work and the esoteric, quantum, energetic, spiritual, whatever you wanna call it, you know, that's where you start learning a few higher truths that kind of pull you out of that- Yeah ... nonsense. Because it does, it gets to a point of being nonsensible and kind of ridiculous eventually. Um, and so I just, I got to the point, I was, I was-Tired of feeling like I had constricted myself to this rabbit hole world of mold, and that, that was all I was getting inquiry-wise.
**Unknown:** All these people that, you know, had convinced themselves or been convinced by others that, you know, everything's mold. And so- Yeah ... I just got tired of all that and I'm like, "All right. We've lost sight of the bigger picture of mental health, metabolic health, so kinda zoom out, rebrand." So I really, you know, I've been locking down with just this mental and metabolic theme, and now I've developed this entire curriculum for doctors and coaches alike with the Functional Mental Health Practitioner Certificate program, and developing a lab test to bring more objectivity to the conversation.
**Unknown:** I like data. I like to keep my head in the clouds, but feet on the ground, right? Mm-hmm. Like, sure, let's go there and let's be abstract and theoretical, but let's stay rooted in data and reproducible evidence so we can have an objective way of navigating these tough healing journeys.
**Unknown:** So- Yeah ... obviously mental health is, you know, it's a huge thing right now. It's only getting bigger and bigger, and I think there's so many conversations around mental health that we're just not having, and I'm trying, with my little platform, I'm trying to, you know, initiate some of those conversations. So I'm curious in your experience, because, you know, I kind of see a twofold as a, you know, as a person that is working with, uh, you know, real-life patients is that there are some people that I see that are biochemically so bogged down and they have infections and they have mold and they have...
**Unknown:** Or they have other issues that have completely altered their neurot- ability to make neurotransmitters or balance neurotransmitters, and that's the first route is, like, we have to get that chemistry balanced. And then I see others that it was more trauma-related or repetitive stress-related in their life, um, or just running on a fight or flight that has then altered the neurotransmitters and the brain function. So, like, in your experience, what are your thoughts on that and, you know, what are some of the things when you're teaching practitioners that you're helping them to understand, you know, those two branches essentially? Yeah.
**Unknown:** Well, it's a hard thing to do and, and as I'm kind of... Like, I'm learning things on a much deeper level 'cause it's one thing to learn something conceptually or learn it at a much more in-depth level- Yeah ... but then to be able to teach it, to teach it to clinicians and coaches, you know, you have to have a much deeper understanding of- Yeah ... of a subject, of a material.
**Unknown:** And so it is taking me, this entire curriculum, that's shaping up to be like 200-plus hours- Oh, wow ... you know, to break it down module by module by module. 'Cause, like, I just finished recording module one the other day, and a lot of it was philosophical, setting the stage and, and showing how it's like, well, you know, we have this entanglement of psychological factors and physiological factors. And, you know, on my Instagram I have a little brain yin-yang symbol, and that's what that represents, is kind of that dichotomy and contrast between the psychology and physiology that, you know, we think of these things as separate, but then they're influencing each other so much- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** through psychosomatic connections. And so I see this sort of polarization on social media a lot where there's kind of the more esoteric, psycho-emotional camp, and that's all the, you know, the breathwork and the self-healing- Yep ... and inner child and, you know, tickle your vagus nerve in the right spot and whatever. But then there's the other side of it that's very, like, objective and tangible and clinical- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** but also reductionistic and myopic of, well, if you just, you know, hit this neurotransmitter receptor with the right supplement, boom, right? And it's so much more complex than that. It, it's so much bigger than that, and we have so many tools. So I, I like to create some distinction where, you know, when I'm training providers or working with private clients of, well, let's map out more the psychological healing opportunities and physiological.
**Unknown:** Yep. You know, and we're measuring objective biomarkers that are sensitive and reproducible, but also measuring, you know, symptomology and perceived quality of life subjectively- Mm ... in an objective manner. And one of the things that in module one I was doing was, you know, I feel like everybody is so caught up with identifying with a mental illness and mental health disorder, that they're failing in forgetting to define what does it even mean to be mentally healthy?
**Unknown:** What does that look like for you? What does that mean to you? If you don't even know what that means for yourself- Yeah ... uh, you know, and you're so busy identifying with your trauma or your ADHD or whatever it is, like, well, then how do you even go from point A, where you're at, to point B, where you don't even know where that is or what that looks like, right?
**Unknown:** So... Yeah. I think that's, like, really huge what you just said is, you know, a lot of... A- and this is, like, even on Dr.
**Unknown:** Nick's side, he's big into the human behavior. And, you know, one of the biggest things he always says is, like, "Are you chasing a fantasy?" And that, uh, we play this comparison game a lot in society, especially with the social platforms that exist, and it's like, what is happiness? You know, what is joy for you? You know, what is good quality of life or, you know, good mental health, and what does that mean to you?
**Unknown:** Because are you chasing what you think it is based off of what you see on a profile that you like? And these are all quality questions that, you know, people have to ask themselves, but sometimes we're in... when they're in such a rut, as practitioners, is we need to help facilitate those questions. And not...
**Unknown:** You know, I personally get very aggravated with practitioners that are just like, "Oh, just take 5-HTP 'cause you 100% have a serotonin problem." And it's like we make these assumptions, especially in conventional medicine, is that's all an antidepressant does, is it tries to flood more serotonin, and that's apparently the only-... possibility if you don't feel your best is you just have low serotonin, end of story. Mm-hmm. And, you know, as we both know is there's so many possibilities.
**Unknown:** There's also many layers. And as you mentioned before, I think it was so well put that there are physiological factors, there are psychological factors, and maybe it's one, maybe it's the other, maybe it's both. But based on you, your blueprint is what needs to be addressed first. You know, what's your foundational issue?
**Unknown:** And that really takes a skilled practitioner. They're not just throwing, you know, different things at the wall hoping that it sticks. Absolutely. It's, you know, that's my whole objective is to kind of create that roadmap, that methodology, that structure.
**Unknown:** Uh, because like I was saying off air, you know, it's like we have psychiatrists in the program. We also have hypnotherapists and health coaches and dieticians. And so I need to create a structured methodology, a reproducible, you know, format that can be replicated. 'Cause there is, like, the more clinical allopathic mechanistic, and I look at it as like to me that's the easy part.
**Unknown:** Like- Mm-hmm ... I think it's easy to, to run some labs, get some clarity, get them on a specific targeted, you know, intervention program, uh, that is clearing the physiology, rebooting the physiology and biochemistry. To me, that's the easy part. But then defining the why and the purpose and helping them pursue eudemonic self-actualization and finding meaning-making in the face of trauma, which is an essential component of mental health- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** that's the harder part, right? So I'm trying to kind of propose that and create that framework that, you know, and then I'm gonna write a book after that to, you know, try to deliver that to the world. But there is that combination of like, well... And for me that's how it was too where even as a young man struggling with my mental health, I always kind of felt like, all right, you know, I'm a, I'm a headstrong young man, I'm finding my way just as everybody else is in this world.
**Unknown:** I never really felt like it was so much of a attitude or psychological issue per se. I just didn't feel the way I wanted to feel physically, physiologically. So I, I do. I am really passionate about, I'm not trying to be everybody's guru or shaman.
**Unknown:** Yeah. Right? Like, I, I have a hard enough time figuring that stuff out for myself. Yeah.
**Unknown:** But, you know, I can at least help these people improve their physiological functionality. Mm-hmm. And now they will be in a place where they're able to think more clearly- Yeah ... rationally, and do the better meaning-making work on their own or with their therapist or tripping on psychedelics in the rainforest, whatever they're into.
**Unknown:** I know. It's, what you just said I think is unbelievably huge because obviously when there is a mental health issue, it is commonly said to someone, "Well, you should talk to someone about it. You should go see, you know, some type of professional." And that is difficult for some people, and for many reasons. But sometimes biochemically they're so trashed that it's really difficult to gain anything positive out of that talk therapy because the biochemistry really just doesn't support it.
**Unknown:** Exactly. So we really need to look at both of these worlds, and I think it's amazing that you're, you're bringing that to fruition and you're teaching all different types of practitioners to think critically, to ask better questions, and to really look at both ends of the spectrum. Because I do think that it gets very one-sided depending on the profession that you're in. You know- Right ...
**Unknown:** obviously psychotherapists, psychiatrists is you're just looking at the trauma and, you know, the mental health, uh, aspect of that. And then functional medicine and some aspects of conventional medicine, they're only looking at the biochemistry. But really the worlds need to be bridged. Absolutely.
**Unknown:** And, you know, this is where my m- more scientific philosophy and theory about mental illness is I, I like to say mental illness is largely, maybe not entirely, but largely an epigenetic phenomenon driven by oxidative stress and inflammation. So I look at it as, as clinicians we need to ameliorate the oxidative stress and inflammation to restore a more functional epigenetic phenotype. And then what you do with that human experience in finding meaning-making and finding your purpose and, that's up to you from there. But at least if we can restore the biochemistry and physiology- Mm-hmm ...
**Unknown:** now, now you're kind of that clean slate. And that's why, I mean, I'm so passionate about it 'cause, like, you look at the plethora of negative harmful input signals that all these humans and organisms are receiving from their environment and the sociology and, and the processed food, and suddenly everything is working against people these days. Yes. Everything.
**Unknown:** Yes. And, you know, we were talking about that off air of how kind of rigged the whole thing is. And it's like I feel so deeply because, like, unless people have, like, a, at least a basic conceptual understanding of what we do in this world, I kind of feel like they don't stand a chance. Yeah.
**Unknown:** Like, it's already hard enough being human. It's already hard enough to define the purpose of our existence, right? We spend our whole lives trying, and we still, you know, don't have a clue. Yeah.
**Unknown:** But then when we have these kind of insurmountable odds against us because of the pro-inflammatory, pro-oxidative, neurodestructive lifestyle that we're being spoon-fed and- Mm-hmm ... and forced upon us, like- Yeah ... people just don't really stand a chance unfortunately. But we're trying to do something about that, so.
**Unknown:** But even just to keep it super simple, what you're describing is I think most people can relate to going out, having too many drinks, maybe eating some crappy fried food, and you feel depressed the next day. Yeah. You feel tired-... you feel sad.
**Unknown:** Maybe some people feel anxious. Like, that's a very relatable situation, and that is not that, you know, everyone's like, "Oh, it's because of the alcohol." Well, yes, but it's because you drove up your inflammatory response- Mm-hmm ... and you drove up that oxidative, uh, stress. So that is what's happening to you.
**Unknown:** And, you know, people are just not... They're not necessarily... Nobody's talking any deeper about that. It's just like, "Oh, well, I feel hungover, that's why I feel this way," and that's- that's just the way that it is when you're hungover.
**Unknown:** And it's like, no, you're creating a massive inflammatory cascade, but it's hitting you harder because you're already inflamed because of your- Right ... day-to-day decisions. So you have this low-level inflammation that makes you feel like low-level shit, and then, you know, you go out and you have a good time, and you're now, like, flooded by inflammatory cytokines, and you're just going to feel even worse than you do on a day-to-day basis. Absolutely.
**Unknown:** But then what do we grab for? We grab for the Xanax. We grab for the things that are going to palliate quickly because that's the world we live in. We live in a world where there's a convenience factor, there's accessibility to drugs that will give us that temporary relief so we don't have to change our lifestyle.
**Unknown:** Exactly. Exactly. That's something I'm preaching about constantly. I like to talk in terms of, like, neuroinflammatory load, which is what you just described, of there's that constant adding to the fuel, the fire of that neuroinflammatory load.
**Unknown:** Yeah. And, you know, if we can measure it objectively and track it and, you know, learn how to modulate our lifestyle behaviors to reduce that neuroinflammatory load, you know, then we're empowered. We can get somewhere. We can be more, you know, cognizant of it.
**Unknown:** But to your point, you know, that's kind of the big issue is, like, I don't have an issue with pharmaceutical science by nature. I have an issue with the over-reliance of it, right? Yeah. Because it's really enabling self-destructive behaviors, right?
**Unknown:** Yep. And it's such a fine line of, like, when do you label somebody, like, an alcoholic or drug addict versus, like, man, you look at typical behavior in society these days. Like, how can you not label that as, you know, something where, okay, so you're living a lifestyle, eating a diet, you know, making all of these unconscious consumer or conscious consumer choices that are hurting you, uh, but then just make it all go away with that magical pill. It's just enabling that self-destructive behavior, unfortunately.
**Unknown:** So I mean, that's really the issue i- is we can't enable self-destructive behaviors anymore. It's just leading us downwards. I know. I always think about it in the sense, and it's a conversation I do open up with clients, is, like, if that wasn't the...
**Unknown:** That wasn't an option, you know? Something for your anxiety, you know, something for your depression, like, that... Those medications were not an option and they didn't exist. You know, what are you doing on a day-to-day basis or not doing on a day-to-day basis that is contributing to that anxiety, that depression, that lack of joy, you know, whatever those negative feelings are?
**Unknown:** Like, what are you doing that you are palliating through those medications? Like, that's what we need to start talking about because- Mm-hmm ... do you hate your job? Do you hate your spouse?
**Unknown:** Like, you know, do you, do you hate where you live? I mean, whatever it is is that, you know, there is an opportunity to authentically change your life. Yeah, it's gonna be hard. Yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable.
**Unknown:** Yeah, it's gonna be all those things, but that's the thing that we need to get out of the fantasy that it's all good, good, good, good, good. There is 100% gonna be bad that comes with the good, and that's why we have, you know, cells or processes in the body that build cells up and then also break them down. You want that breakdown. You wanna break down the cancer cells.
**Unknown:** You wanna break down the toxic cells. Like, that balance of good and bad exists in all different aspects of the world, physiology included, so why do we think that our lives should be one-sided? Mm-hmm. And that, I think, is creating a lot of pain for people, is that- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** I should be happy all the time, everything should be great all the time, and, you know, like, "Oh, I, I don't wanna make this change 'cause there's too much pain associated with it." But I'm like, "But you're in pain every day anyway, low-level pain." Yeah. Yeah. So go through a little bit more, and then we'll come out on the other side. Yeah.
**Unknown:** Absolutely. And there is that. There's kind of this, like, split in the population to some degree. I think there's a lot of people that just...
**Unknown:** And those are not people that would even listen to a conversation like this, right? Yeah. Like, they're living in their own reality and, you know, it does make me think of the human battery analogy from The Matrix to some extent. And but there is such a thing, though, as the...
**Unknown:** There is this, like, hyper-fixation on optimizing the human experience to an unrealistic degree where it's like, you know, we have to distinguish between a chronic symptom of, like, you're chronically depressed and, you know- Yeah ... you have measurable perturbations in your physiology based on lab testing, right? Versus, like, yeah, to your point, this idea of, like, we should just feel amazing all the time- Yeah ... and what pro- protocol do I do or- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** what root cause is preventing me from feeling amazing all the time. It's like, well, that's, that's not realistic, you know? Yeah. You know, suffering is, is part of the human experience.
**Unknown:** Feeling depressed or anxious or... It's part of it. We're not gonna feel perfect all the time. So that becomes its own kind of mental health disorder in a sense where people are neurotically and orthorexically and, you know, kind of turning into these hypochondriacs of- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** "Oh, oh my gosh," like, "I, I don't feel perfect all the time. What's wrong with me?" Yeah. "Who's got the solution? Take my money." And it's like, well, I don't want your money.
**Unknown:** I just want you to, you know, be a little bit more reasonable. Yeah. 100%. Well, I really wanna hear a little bit more about this mental map that you have created.
**Unknown:** What is it measuring? You know, how is this, uh... Like, what type of information is this giving to an individual so that they can start their journey? Yeah.
**Unknown:** Man, uh, thank you for asking. It's a, it's a super cool panel. You know, something that I'm concerned about, I think the functional lab testing craze has gotten a little out of control, to be candid. You know, I think a lot of these functional labs that people are obsessing over and running routinely, and, "Oh," like, you know, the blood work you do at your doctor, that doesn't tell you anything, and it's worthless.
**Unknown:** Like, you need to run these exotic, fancy functional tests that a lot of that technology is, is not clearly established. Like, just because we can measure something does not mean it has established clinical significance. Yeah. So a huge concern I have is I feel like our entire industry runs off data that's not reliable, not reproducible- Sure ...
**Unknown:** and does not have established clinical significance. So how as an industry of clinicians can we make sound clinical decisions off data that does not have established clinical significance, right? Yeah. So I was just beating my head against a wall with all that and creating my own primarily custom blood panels.
**Unknown:** You know, just blood work through LabCorp primarily, and I was digging into literature to find, like, what reliable, clinically established biomarkers do we currently have that are cheap, widely accessible, and can be related to neurological issues and mental health issues, right? Mm-hmm. And it's mind-blowing how, you know, our, our conventional psychiatric system in all of its wisdom, in all of its power, they have this attitude of there are no biomarkers of mental health and mental illness. Yeah.
**Unknown:** And it's like that just simply does not align with the scientific literature. That is a narrative that goes along with their business model of subjectively qualifying, well, this person's behavior, we determine that that cluster of symptoms is bipolar or ADHD. Yeah. So now you go into that bucket where now we have this standard of treatment with these pharmaceuticals with an efficacy that's dog shit, right?
**Unknown:** Mm-hmm. And, and it's like, God, can, can we bring some objectivity to it? So for example, you know, one of the core markers, very basic, everybody knows about it, good old-fashioned C-reactive protein. Mm-hmm.
**Unknown:** Why is... W- why are... E- every single psychiatrist should be running CRP on every single patient all the time. Yeah.
**Unknown:** You know, it's undeniable the link between inflammation and mental illness. It is now the leading paradigm. So much so that we have new anti-inflammatory pharmaceuticals rolling out. They're in phase two clinical trials.
**Unknown:** How do those drugs work? They block interleukin-6. What is CRP a marker of? Interleukin-6 elevation.
**Unknown:** What increases interleukin-6? High body fat, dysbiosis, fatty liver, you know, the list goes on. Yep. So my objective with the mental map was like, I'm tired of all this silliness, the silly narrative of functional medicine, the silly narrative of modern psychiatry.
**Unknown:** What is the literature saying? When you look at the literature, we have so many mostly blood serum biomarkers that have established clinical significance with PTSD and, you know, bipolar and Alzheimer's and literally every neurodegenerative condition, and it all really wraps around the subject of microglial activation, which are the innate immune cells of the central nervous system. They're the architects and the guardians of the central nervous system, so they regulate the neuroinflammatory response, and they co-regulate neuroplasticity. So I was trying to design a panel that can objectively qualify the degree of microglial activation.
**Unknown:** I think I nailed it. Mm-hmm. You know, my whole course and curriculum is built around this science and, you know, just hundreds if not thousands of scientific references, just a strong amount of evidence to show how we can use these biomarkers and the physiological understanding to objectively see, like, hey, this person is suffering from depression, and look, they have extreme immune activation and neuroinflammation and leaky brain, right? Yeah.
**Unknown:** I don't think we're effectively using the well-established biomarkers that are widely available, and this was my way of doing something about that, of creating a proprietary panel, branding it, you know, using the science to, you know, get people interested in it. But it's, um, quite the project and a good one at that. That's amazing. Yeah, I think that that is, is huge and also refreshing for people to know that it's not any type of like crazy elaborate test that, like, we're taking bone marrow.
**Unknown:** Nope. So it's just blood-based test. Yeah. Um, but where can people, you know, access this test?
**Unknown:** I know that obviously you're teaching and, uh, getting other practitioners to understand how to leverage this in their own clinical practice. So, you know, is there somewhere online that individuals can read more about this or, you know, access it if they are struggling with their mental health? Yeah. Y- so I'm super transparent about all of this because at the end of the day, it's really a custom blood panel through LabCorp, right?
**Unknown:** Mm-hmm. And technically, people... So the mental map, like, that's the brand name that I gave to the proprietary panel, but- Yep ... these markers are not unique or exclusive to me.
**Unknown:** These are biomarkers available through Quest, through LabCorp. People could literally, like, go rip the list of biomarkers off of my website- Mm-hmm ... bring it to their doctor and say, "Hey, Doc, I want to run all of these," right? Mm-hmm.
**Unknown:** Now, how they're gonna be interpreted from a conventional perspective, good luck with that, right? But- Yes. ... you know, nonetheless, it's...
**Unknown:** my point being this is not like these are my biomarkers exclusive to me, and you can only get them through me. No. Every Quest and LabCorp you can get these biomarkers. Yeah.
**Unknown:** But knowing what they mean, that's where my research comes in. That's, that's, you know, the secret sauce is like, well, I know what this means in a way that nobody else on the planet knows. Mm-hmm. And that's why I'm teaching it.
**Unknown:** And so we have, even in my Linktree on my Instagram, like, there's a mental map button. It gets thousands of clicks. So we're selling the test direct to consumer. We're getting providers signed up as their providers in the mental map.
**Unknown:** We're training clinicians on... I say "we," I mean it's me. I'm training clinicians on, you know, how toHow do you utilize the test? Yeah.
**Unknown:** And whether they're ordering that proprietary panel or they're just kind of recreating that panel in partial because they learn what some of these markers mean- Yeah ... you know, I, I don't care. I'm, I'm just trying to get the information out there to educate and empower people. But we do have, you know, a, a public-facing webpage where people can buy the test direct to consumer or, uh, sign up as a provider and everything in between.
**Unknown:** Awesome. I love it. Well, I'll make sure that once we post this, that we have all those links available for people so they can, you know, know where to find you, know where to find that, um, because I know- Mm-hmm ... that, that is going to, uh, you know, people are gonna have their interest piqued once they hear about this.
**Unknown:** Because, like you said before, it's really unfortunate there is, uh, you know, you know, when we really talk about a, a pandemic, we're, you know, we're in a pandemic of mental health issues. Yeah. Um, it's something that, uh, I don't think a lot of people are talking about, and, and I don't think that a lot of people are finding solutions that really work, I should say. Right.
**Unknown:** Right. So, um, as we wrap up, I, I think it would be great... We talked about so many different things, but I wanna have people walk away with some refreshing tips, I should say. Because obviously, we talked about things from an environmental perspective, we talked about things from a lifestyle perspective, and, you know, it's not about individuals living in a bubble, like, be scared of mold, be scared of chemicals, and, you know, you're never gonna be able to, be able to eat at a restaurant again because you're gonna have, uh, you know, neuroinflammation and die.
**Unknown:** So it's, it's a matter of, of balance. Yeah. And I want people to walk away really feeling empowered. And I'll just say from my perspective is I think the testing is huge.
**Unknown:** I think people need more data on their bodies- Yeah ... and stop making assumptions and stop following cookie cutter protocols. And as you said before is subjectively you have this, so you match this diagnosis, and then that dictates this protocol based on the textbook. Right.
**Unknown:** And we need to get away from that. We need to get away from that model, get away from that paradigm, and we need to leverage various data points. And I think one of those data points is the way that you answer questions as a patient. You know, what...
**Unknown:** Have you been asked better questions, and have you been asked questions about your lifestyle and your trauma and your daily behaviors, as well as do you now have data that pieces together with your biochemistry? Mm-hmm. And, you know, how does that link up? Where is the overlap?
**Unknown:** And then that should really create a, a personalized roadmap. But I personally work with patients and I'm like, "We gotta fix your foundation." Mm-hmm. Because foundationally, your liver is maxed. Yeah.
**Unknown:** It is maxed out from the teenage years when you used to smoke cigarettes, and, you know, the drinking you did in college, and the fact that you work in a hair salon and you're exposed to aerosol chemicals every day, and the fact that you have 10 amalgam fillings, mercury fillings in your mouth. Like, these are things that people don't realize. It's compounding, compounding, compounding, compounding. And it's not...
**Unknown:** You're not doomed. You just need someone to help facilitate a way to get those detox organs to be resilient again. Mm-hmm. And then you don't have to live in fear of your environment.
**Unknown:** Yes, be smart about it, and don't actively expose yourself to crap. But, you know, but you don't have to live in a bubble, I think, is, is the key thing that I want people to walk away with, because that stressed me out. You know? Oh, yeah.
**Unknown:** In the beginning of this functional medicine world, I was like, "Damn," like, "I don't have time to juice every day, and smoothie every day"- Yeah ... "and kale salad every day," and like, "Sometimes I want a glass of wine." And, you know, I just felt like it was so polarized. Mm-hmm. And I worked really hard to figure out, like, okay, what's my foundational issues and how do I create more of that balance?
**Unknown:** Right. No, I think you said that really well, and we do need to get away from that. Unfortunately, like with lab testing, having, you know, primarily been dominated as, as a tool by conventional medicine, and I think it's gotten bastardized in that way, where, you know, the question is, are we using that lab testing and, and blood work and whatever it is to assess the state of physiology, which is a result of your environment and your behavior in that environment? Yeah.
**Unknown:** You know? But then it's like, oh, well, this biomarker, what pill do I take for that biomarker if it's out of range? And it's like, no, did you not just hear me? Like, the biomarker is a reflection of the damage being done by your environment and your lifestyle, so we should be looking at how do we fix your environment and your lifestyle to fix the biomarker, and we track the biomarker to make sure it's moving in the right direction, right?
**Unknown:** Yeah. But we've been so indoctrinated and domesticated and trained to think of it in a way of, you know, pill for the ill, pill for the biomarker, right? Like, well, my histamine and GGT are high, so what pill and protocol do I take to fix those biomarkers? And it's like, well, it's 'cause you're drinking alcohol every single night, right?
**Unknown:** So- ... you know, we have to look at the behaviors that cause the perturbations in the physiology, not just, again, enabling our own self-destructive lifestyle behaviors of like, well, what pill do I take to make it go away, right? Oh my gosh. 'Cause it, it is the basics.
**Unknown:** 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It's, to your point, like, we overcomplicate it way too much, even the functional medicine space, and there is a hyper-productization of health.
**Unknown:** And it's like, no, being healthy could be cheap AF. It, it could be free. Yeah. Like, you don't need all the gadgets.
**Unknown:** You don't need all the supplements. You don't need all the medications. Like, you could be healthy AF and resilient by just adopting, you know, better behaviors, and it's a more organic and kind of primal, natural, close to the earth lifestyle too. Like- Yeah So it's crazy.
**Unknown:** Yeah, I know, and it's, that's the thing is it's all about that balance because there's a lot of individuals that are like, "Okay, I can modify X, Y, and Z behaviors, but then based on my situation, these are gonna be harder." So, you know, maybe the supplements can support until they get to a place to make those other behavioral changes. But- Yeah ... I think that what you said was massive because I, I literally was talking about this the other day, is I have a, a patient who, he's diabetic and, you know, he's like reaching out about, um, his medication's not working the way it used to and, you know, he needs to get these numbers in check. He needs to get these numbers in check.
**Unknown:** I'm like, "Dude, at the end of the day, you could feel better about the numbers looking good on your lab test, but like you're still a diabetic because you haven't made any of the behavioral changes." So, you know, it's, it shows you how much is psychological at the same time. It's like I feel okay because my glucose is where I, in a good place according to the textbook, but really at the end of the day, like how is your brain functioning? Because you still ha- you're still a diabetic. It's just your numbers look better when you're on your medication, and then you come off your medication, you're still a diabetic.
**Unknown:** Mm-hmm. So it's, it's definitely, it's a mindset that really needs to be shifted, and I think it's huge because you're not necessarily just helping the, the patient or the client. You're now working with the practitioners so we can create that bigger cascade effect essentially. Yeah, absolutely.
**Unknown:** Yeah, and, and that's why I think using the objective data to validate that, right? Yeah. Because people like, no, like you're telling me like just drinking water and going for a nature walk every day and, you know, whatever, like that's gonna... They don't believe it.
**Unknown:** Like it, it's too simple. Yeah. Like, no, I want to give you thousands of dollars for some fancy protocol instead. And unfortunately- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** there's a lot of peddlers that will just grab that, right? But it's like no, yeah, maybe just give it a shot, and then I can show you as your labs get better and better. And, you know, that's why it's kind of funny with my background as a trainer and nutrition coach because this has been how I've always done things. Yeah.
**Unknown:** But then like, you know, you'll get a conventional psychiatrist, and it blows their mind when they see like- ... whoa, how is, how is this before and after lab result possible? Like, what did you do? Yeah.
**Unknown:** It's like, uh, diet and exercise- ... and, you know, don't, don't eat like an asshole. Like I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
**Unknown:** Wild. I know. It's, but it shows how far from like nature we've become, you know? Yeah.
**Unknown:** And I know that even just personally moving, I just moved to South Carolina, and, you know, I live a, a block from the beach. And my lifestyle has changed dramatically because of, you know, my choices, my location. And just like m- my overall mental health, physical health has radically changed, and it's because my behaviors have changed. And I have time to drink water 'cause I'm not back to back to back to back to back.
**Unknown:** I eat actual real lunch opposed to shoving something in my mouth 'cause I have to run to the next client. Like these little things, you know, you just do. You just do them. Yeah.
**Unknown:** And you, and especially for me, I was like, "But I'm making a difference in the world, so like I'll keep running myself into the ground," until you're just like, "No, I can't do this anymore because this is just not serving me," and it sure as hell was not gonna serve having a family now. So, you know, and it's, it is mind-blowing. But I will tell you, like I don't think I was shaking on the outside but almost like shaking on the inside when I was slowing down because my body was like, my nervous system was like, "Do, do, do, do, do, do. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go." Yeah.
**Unknown:** And so like I f- I know for those of you that are like, "That's not real life, and I can't slow down, and I got so much on my plate," like I know. I get it. But it does take a bold decision to make that shift so that you have the time to exercise, you have the time to get outside, you have the time to eat normal meals. Um, yeah, and it's uncomfortable, and your, your physiology will reset, and it's like almost scary when it does.
**Unknown:** Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, everybody has to hit that point in time where they're willing to make that bold change. Yeah. And, you know, having a baby was that for me.
**Unknown:** I'm really proud of you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
**Unknown:** Happy for you. So it's been, it's been wild and crazy, but, um, but all good. So- Yeah ... but uncomfortable as shit.
**Unknown:** I bet. Always is. Uncomfortable as anything. Yeah.
**Unknown:** So, so audience, we feel you. We get it. We're not like... We are human as well.
**Unknown:** Yeah. So, you know, it, it's all doable, but you just have to make that, that choice. Yeah. Absolutely.
**Unknown:** So, well, thank you so much for many reasons. Thank you so much for, first of all, being such a pioneer in our field. Thank you for doing all the damn research that I would never do- ... to create an amazing scientifically driven course, um, because that is just so not how my brain works.
**Unknown:** But I absolutely love it, and it's needed 100 million percent. Um, and thank you for doing this podcast. It's, it's awesome to have, to share with other people what you're doing. Oh, no, it's, it's my pleasure.
**Unknown:** Thank you again for having me, and we'll do a part two on my podcast. We're getting that rolling later this fall, and so we can, uh, continue this riff 'cause we always manifest some really good conversations. I think they're really eclectic and comprehensive and, you know, having the dialogue that I don't see a lot out there in this industry. Yeah.
**Unknown:** I think there's so much productization and- Yeah ... flashy this and shiny that, and it's like, uh, we need to have more real human conversations, so I think it was a really good one, and I certainly enjoyed it. I think that's what happens- And I think the audience will ... when you're like...
**Unknown:** I don't know if this has been your experience, but I just feel like when you're in this industry for a while, like we get caught up in all the tests. We get, oh, I got a, oh, new fancy test. Ooh, this is so good for Lyme disease. So you get like real caught up in all that, and then- Yeah ...
**Unknown:** you get caught up in all the new fancy supplements, technology. Like I literally own every technology. You know, you get so caught up in that, and then you do this long enough that you realize that it is really just getting back to the basics. So, um, so I think it's awesome.
**Unknown:** Yeah. It's like you see the seasoned practitioners, and they're doing less and less with the patients because it's really just common sense stuff. Absolutely. It is.
**Unknown:** It always brings back, us back to the foundation. It brings us back to nature and what it means to be human. Yeah. That's for sure.
**Unknown:** All right, guys, thank you so much for being with us, and we will have a part two with Brendan where we're talking a little bit more about an entrepreneurial journey from practitioner to teacher. We thank you for being a listener and subscriber to Integrative Wellness Radio. If you're looking to learn more about Integrative Wellness Group as well as Dr. Nick or Dr.
**Unknown:** Nicole, you can check out integrativewellnessgroup.com. All night, no sleep. 'Cause I feel like I'm always dreaming. Wide awake, that's okay.
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About Integrative You Radio
Integrative You Radio is a root cause medicine and integrative medicine podcast hosted by Dr. Nicole Rivera and Dr. Nick Carruthers — two integrative doctors who build personalized wellness protocols from your DNA, minerals, hormones, gut, and nervous system rather than from a population template. Looking for an integrative doctor who reads your labs together instead of in isolation? This is the show.
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